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Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pos-Trib ... Who Cares!

Can we all agree to disagree in love for one another?

I wrote quite a response to another discussion that we had posted America: A Dark Vision and it was too long to post as a reply and therefore this blog is a response to Mary Allen, my sister in the LORD who has done so much to encourage each of us and uplift our spirits for the times in which we are now living.

The difference between what we see happening all around s in America today and what we have become as a nation is this: I am not a “Pretriber”, nor is my husband, Jake. I do not place my salvation on whether or not we are going to be raptured out of here, but on what Jesus did for me at Calvary.

It is hard to not accept the fact that RIGHT NOW our brothers and sisters in the Middle East and in the Sudan are being tortured and martyred for their faith in Jesus. Try to tell them that they are not living in tribulation ...I don't think they would agree.

With that being said, my hope, my faith and my desire to serve our LORD remain only in Him. It is from Him that I draw my strength from the darkness that we see happening all around us and from that which we know from scriptures is to come before the LORD returns in all of his glory and majesty.

I appreciate you ministry here because we need to be encouraged and uplifted so that we can continue the good fight and so that we can finish the race to which we have been called until the LORD takes us home to be with Him. Some, of us will be here to witness his triumphant return, while others will be martyred because of their testimony for Yeshua.

“When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;” - Revelation 6:9

None of us wants to think that we are going to be one of the souls under the alter, but this is exactly what is happening to our brothers and sisters on the other side of the globe. Why is it that we, as Americans, think that God's judgments do not apply to us?

I was just reading and researching the scriptures this morning and the LORD led me to I Kings Chapter 11. Here we learn that the Hebrew people, who were then being ruled by King Solomon, were to be divided because:

"Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon."

Have we not also sacrificed our children at the alters of Molech? Was this not exactly the campaign that Obama won his election on ... gaining the votes of women who wish to sacrifice their children and the men who are grateful when they do because when they sowed their wild oats, they didn't get a crop failure?

Our nation is going to come under judgment and I honestly believe that America, like the children of Israel as a nation, will be divided. Is this not obviously the direction we are going in all of the secession movements we are seeing across our land?

David Barton, in his book Myth of Separation, tells the story of how our ancestors felt about being ruled by a tyrant king:

Not only from pulpit and town hall came the cries for liberty, but now the average colonist blended his voice in support of total independence from King George [Obama. Most Crown-appointed governors remained loyal to their king. One wrote to the Board of Trade in England saying:

"If you ask an American, who is his master? He will tell you he has none, nor any governor but Jesus Christ."

This may have been the incident which gave rise to the cry which was carried by the messengers of the newly formed Committee for Intercolonial Correspondence:

"NO KING BUT KING JESUS"

Let this now become the cry of our land once again! AMEN!!

I wish I could believe as the Pretribers do that we are just going to be "beamed out of here", but I cannot from what I have been given to understand from the scriptures in the final chapters of Revelation (which gives the exact chronology of the chain of events), and so we must proclaim the warning to prepare, first and foremost in our spiritual lives, because ... and on this we can both agree ... Jesus is coming soon!

If anyone reading this does not have a relationship with our LORD, now is the time to search out your heart and ask Him what you should be doing with your life. Ask Him to come in and make Him LORD and Saviour. This is my prayer for you.

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." - Hebrews 13:8

Maranatha!

Just me,

Katie

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Comment by David A Clark on November 19, 2012 at 10:21pm: I have to put my two cents in, I know of the three rapture doctrines, I belief that the church will be tested, and Jesus will test his church, to see who will fall away. I agree with Don that the church is not a bulding, The Bible is coming to life right in front of our eyes, we ARE in the end times told to Jesus's deciples, rumors of wars, wars, weather problems, money problems, God does not change, he does the same thing all the time, consiter, God warnes his people, removes his people, then judgment falls, same in Sodem and Gumora, the Flood, Jerusamul being destroyed, God does not change!!! God put BHO back into power to take the US down, Israel has always looked to the US for help, God want Israel to look to him, not the US.

Comment by Don Langlois on November 18, 2012 at 12:20pm: ruth cullison

I had no plan to respond, but alas I am compelled.

You have certainly have quelled the pretrib rapture doctrine with the little you presented. With that. Believers will have their feet set upon this world before, during and after this very thing you have said.

However, I refute you claim that suggests that the church is found within a structure, building or other object. In effect the church insofar as such has fallen. Yet there remain those who believe. Those to cast the doctrines of men and demon into the fire that they be destroyed and blotted out.

Pray tell. Where then can a man find such a sanction. Does a man enter into Catholicism to find sanctuary. Or perhaps one of the many Protestant denominations. Do we know the identity of the harlot. Or perhaps the beast having seven heads and ten horns that she sits upon. Do we know who the mother is and who her daughters are. Surely it has nothing to do with Islam or any other religion. But is a religion that is, or was home to those who believed.

Does a believer embrace truth and deception with both arms. Is one not an enemy and the other a friend. Does one give salvation and the other give death.

Yes, those who are elected to salvation will know when that hour so comes that gives rise to the son of perdition. That man of sin.

In the response previous you make admission that the churches have fallen away. Fallen asleep. For this reason wickedness has taken hold over this nation. Have but there been one church that has trained up its youth that the nation may be guided by godly men rather than ungodly. Youth seeking righteous rather than hiding themselves away in a cave.

Insofar as doctrines. Things I did once believe have been cast to the wind that it may be dispersed. Should I circumnavigate the world to find a man that would teach rightly and in truth the things that give sustenance for life. To what does the truth give feeding to. The body or the spirit. To which is recipient of that salvation through Christ. Is this body to slip away only to go back to the dust. Am I then no more. Asleep awaiting an awakening. Is this what nothing for me. Or is there more that I should know. That cannot be given of men, but by the Spirit.

To whom does God speak. The outer man or the inner man. The outer man was given that through him the inner might attain reconciliation through the sacrifice of the only begotten Son. The outer man comes to his last day and is no more. For it corruptible. Does the inner man then also come to his last day also. For if that be so, then a man is no more.

The dead are not dead as men perceive death. If that be not true, do we then say that Abraham was and is not. Or that Abraham awaits awakening from his slumber. God is not God to the dead, but to the living. If Abraham is dead to the outer man is he also dead of the inner man. Or has the inner man remained.

Should I rejoice at the teachings of man, or await on the Lord and hold fast that which is given through the inner man, whom God does commune.

To whom was that promise given if given before the world. What ear that hear should then rejoice that God desires the return of the lost. Is not Christ that one which was promised before the world. Who then received the promise. Was it given to the upright, or to the fallen.

Which receives the salvation promise. The outer man or the inner man.

Comment by ruth cullison on November 17, 2012 at 4:48pm: Don Langlois...you said..

The church is not mentioned after chapter 3 of Revelation because the fulfillment of that which Christ spoke had come to pass. The falling away had come.

The Bible says..

Revelation 3-10, 11.Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Who exactly are the CROWNED ones the Lord is speaking to in these verses????. These CROWNED ONES are on the earth during the hour of temptation...Jesus is telling them to hold fast the teachings of Christ they have. lest they lose their crown.....

And Don if you cannot say what the great temptation of Rev. 3-9, 10 is you better learn ..It is here now...

Hint it is when satan comes in his kingdom of Rev 13 and convinces some that he is the god of abraham... This lie is what causes the great falling away of 2 thess. 2....

Comment by ruth cullison on November 17, 2012 at 4:15pm: Luke 12-12..For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

We are in THAT HOUR... Revelation 3-9,10...

John 14-26...But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you....

I am aghast at how many churches are not warning the people of the hour we live in and of the islamic broad gates of hell... Obama is ISlam's savior...and the brain dead in America are following him to hell..

http://patriotaction.net/video/video/show?id=2600775%3AVideo%3A5999...

Comment by ruth cullison on November 17, 2012 at 4:03pm: The rapture was also called the translation....And indeed it is..It is man's translation of scrlipture, not the truth...

Comment by ruth cullison on November 17, 2012 at 4:00pm: Mary Ellen needs to learn the mysteries of the Bible like we are instructed....The Holy Ghost is the teacher...The Adams family became like satan in understanding good and evil.... It takes the Lord to unravel the Bible for us and the snags in our minds...

Comment by ruth cullison on November 17, 2012 at 3:54pm: 2 Thess. 4-17..Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall ......we ever be with the Lord.

Satan is called the prince of the power of the air.... He will be gone and the Lord's spirit will fill he air..Clouds possibly refer to the cloud of great witnesses...So shall we forever be with the Lord in his spirit with the cloud of great witnesses

The real translation is the transfigeration...

1 Corinthians 15-51 52, 53.....Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

1John 3-2..Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We are right now eyeball deep in tribulation...The Lord is on the way back...

The church over the years have not waited for the Lord to reveal the Bible they have put some of their own translations on it...It does not mean they are unsaved...It means we are not perfect yet..

Comment by Don Langlois on November 17, 2012 at 2:55pm: It is taught that God decreed for Judah 70 years for captivity. Thought the 70 years is incorrect of captivity the 70 years for being under Babylon's yoke is not. They surely were under the yoke for 70 years, but not in captivity 70 years. Neither was Daniel, who was among the first to be taken into captivity taken at the time also taught. It was the thirds year of Jehoiakim's reign, but not as one considers as written on its own. Because Daniel was led into captivity the eighth year. Which also was the year that Jehoiskim began a three vassalship under Nebuchadnezzar. Daniel was taken captive the end of Jehoiakim's 11 year reign. The 70 years warning was given in the fourth year of Jehioakim's reign and again in the fifth year. According to this Judah was placed under Babylon's yoke for 70 years in the eighth year, but the captivity began three years later.

When you set before a nativity scene, remove for it the three men from the east. They did not appear until Christ was a child of about 2 years. Better yet, do not display and seek God's pleasure for what we celebrate is not the birth of the Savior, but the winter solstice.

Comment by Mary Allen on November 17, 2012 at 12:17pm: Rev. Walenmeyer, I follow the doctrine of the Rapture and the importance of witnessing for our Lord. Thank you for the scriptures and the inspiration you bring to this site.

To Katie: In the many years that I have studied God's Word under many different teachers and pastors I have learned how important it is to know and understand the Bible using hermeneutics:

I= isagogics, the interpretation of scripture with its framework of historical setting or prophetical environment.
C=categorical, communication of scripture – comparing scripture with scripture which results in Biblical systematic theology. Theological nomenclature must be assigned to give retention of categories.
E=exegesis, the expository approach to scriptures and based on the analysis of the grammar, etymology, syntax of the scripture. Every verse must be correctly translated so it can be accurately interpreted. It must be interpreted in the time of writing. This is to determine under the ministry of God the Holy Spirit the exact thought of any given writer under any given context.

I am only a student of the Bible, I no longer teach it except to my grandchildren or if someone has a question and when I use the Word of God on a comment site. The pastor I started studying under in 1972 (after leaving a denominational church) went to be with the Lord in 2002 after 53 years of studying and teaching. His son now teaches having studied in a conservative seminary and under his father all his life has taken up the mantle and teaches the same way in our world wide ministry. I have studied the different beliefs regarding the return of our Lord and I am convinced for myself that there will be a resurrection of the Church Age believers before the start of the Tribulation. That does not mean we will not face great discipline in this Nation because we the people have turned our back to God for too many years and have allowed our government to proceed with its evil ways against freedom. God will not continue to bless our Nation until we are willing to accept his plan for our lives. As goes the believer, so goes the Nation.

It does NOT bother me that people do not believe the way I do; what bothers me is that believers are not willing to put God first in their life. (I am sure you do) If we are here on earth to glorify Jesus Christ then we need to know how. Most churches today barely teach the Bible but rather feel good sermons with a lot of emotionalism that doesn't last long enough to get out of the door of the church. I know, I have been there, done that. I use to be go to church every time the doors were open for whatever. I taught young people in Sunday School, Training Union, Tuesday night Bible study, visitation, sang in the choir and hosted parties and fellowship for the teens in every church I went to from the age of 21 (until 1972). That was all hay, wood and stubble because I did not know how to be in fellowship all those years and when we are not filled with the Spirit when we do God's work; we are not rewarded or it.

As believers, we are to have a relationship with Jesus Christ through the study of His Word; we are mandated to do so:

II Tim 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

II Peter 3:8… but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity.

Col 2:7 having been firmly rooted (in Bible Doctrine) and now being built up in Him and established in your faith (Bible Doctrine in your soul), just as you were instructed (taught by your pastor teacher), and overflowing with gratitude.

Roman 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world (human viewpoint), but be transformed by the renewing (renovation) of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

As a premillennist, I find that the whole Bible fits together historically through the different Dispensations. This way we keep from being confused in how God works with His people throughout history.

Comment by Don Langlois on November 17, 2012 at 12:15pm: The church is not mentioned after chapter 3 of Revelation because the fulfillment of that which Christ spoke had come to pass. The falling away had come.

I do not limit the power of the Almighty to say that he must come to this world to remove his saints. The dead rise first ,because in death the spirit is given way to its return to God. Yes, the body, that dwelling place has come to the end of days, but what was before entering into the dwelling remains. God had not established salvation to the dwelling place, but through the dwelling place.

Does one presume to say that, "Alas, Abraham, who was accounted to righteousness because he believed is now dead', that Abraham awaits in the ground and thus asleep until the coming of the Lord". God has established his salvation to them, who were before the world that through the world his salvation would thus come to complete and perfect fulfillment.

Would I be justified to say that upon death, I am no more. Or am I justified to say that upon death I yet am and gone back unto my God whether under the blood covering offered and received or rejected. If the promise was given before to the world, to whom was it given. Was it given who need not the blood covering, or to them that was indeed in need. Thus the angels who did not fall, but to them that did fall were in much need otherwise death was the finality of the life given. Thus through God, who entered into the world in a place of dwelling entered into death that we might have life. But God is Spirit and as God is Spirit, so we are also.

The salvation is not of the flesh, but made through the flesh. Salvation is necessary through the physical for the spiritual. This is the light that shines within all men. The fall of Adam did not bring death to the spirit, but brought severance tween the outward man and the inner man. Adam not only severed that spiritual connection with God, but even within himself. It is Christ that brought an awakening, wherein the spirit was no longer dead to the flesh.

Christ gave many words as is written in the scriptures that should give sight to the sightless. That which he spoke concerning Lazarus and the rich man was not merely a story line, hope in the shadow of death. For a Lazarus ascended heavenward, so too did the rich man. For no one entering into death can go any place but the ground and return to dust. But we are more than flesh. When we give up the spirit as Christ gave up the Spirit in death, we cannot remain in the world. Each must make his decision, his choice on whether Christ was, is and is to come, or reject that God as the Son of man had entered into the world to save it. When Christ spoke, it was as the Son and not as the Father. Yet, we do know that Christ is the Everlasting father and Mighty God.

Where does the test of a man's faith come if he be not tested. And in the last days many will be tested for their faith. I do not say that God will put a man to test, because does not test any man. But God does accept upon his shoulders the responsibility of things. We know that Job was tested and we know who the Tempter was. Yet it was God who took irresponsibility for that the Tempter brought against Job. Job was tested in the fire of his day and we also in the last days shall be tempted of fire.

No man knows where the church is that he may enter into and seek refuge. Are they not divided by teachings and doctrines. Where can a man then seek God. Is God not present in all places at the same time. If I go to a n mountain top do I then await the presence of the Lord. Should I then enter into the deepest part of the earth and there await him. Is the Lord not already there awaiting me. No one has seen God in his true magnificent and glorious person. Not even the angels of heaven, but the Son only. For if we can understand that the Son is in the Father and the father in the Son, should we not therefore know that there are not two Gods, but the One True God.

Does it matter what one believes. I should say that it does. It is better for a man to ignorant and know only that which was promised and fulfilled than to carry an overburdening yoke of fallacies. If this does not matter then the changing of the Sabbath does not matter also. For God gave us food for growth, but man taints that food and makes it perverse. Will not deliver an answer to a searching heart to one seeking his face. God will in the end raise up the lowly man and make low the man on high.